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Hi all,
I got this brace stock in a while back, Lutz spruce. I bought 12 orders of the stuff so I could stock up for future builds.

I was surprised when I opened the box and found big chunks of sapwood. They were split from logs that look like they had been sitting out in the weather for years.

I managed to get enough good clean bracing for 2 guitars out of it. Here's some of what's left.





Some of the outer wood is starting to rot and I have alot of blue staining on the rest. I just don't feel comfortable using much of this for bracing.

Questions:

Is it common to use sapwood for brace stock? Most of these pieces do have 30 to 40 grain lines to the inch.

Is there a way to get rid of the blue stains? Much of the wood is sound but has the stains.

Did I get Hosed?   

Thanks in advance,

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Horton, MI

stains are hard to get rid of.

two options.

brace the top with it and who looks in there anyway?

once the soundbox is closed, spray it ALL blue in there!!

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

Kirt,

Man! I am sorry to see that stuff! I remember when he started to offer the sapwood as bracewood. Lutz Spruce is a sitka hybrid, a Sitka/White Spruce hybrid to be specific. With White and Engelmann Spruce you can use the sap wood as there is typically no different in density or colour. In Sitka you just can't!! The sap wood is holds WAY more water than the heart wood. I split and saw all of the sap off the Lutz I process and it is used to heat the shop and the neighbours houses. It seems a waste but braces are just too important to fool around with questionable wood.

A couple of other things, when I have logs laying around bugs start to bore into the wood quite quickly. But they only go in as far as the sap wood. You should also ensure taht your bracewood is straight grained , especially if you want to hand split you brace stock. I typically process all of the bracestock I sell. It is re-sawn from hand split billets into 3/4 inch edge grain boards.

Me, I wouldn't use it if it was Lutz or Sitka Spruce, if it was White or Engelmann it might be fine.

I hope that helps!

Shane

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Canada

Thanks Shane,

I guess you know who my source is. Not going to mention any names. I'm hoping what I've used is ok because I have 2 tops and 1 back braced with the stuff. It seems very stiff and has good tap tone, but I think I'll stray away from any questionable pieces. Maybe I need to start doing deflection testing. Oh well, live and learn, ain't that what it's all about.

Martin, I'll think about the blue paint. Maybe it'll go good with a blue s** b****.

Kirt

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Horton, MI

A blue S**B****! Oh no! Don't go giving Hesh any crazy ideas!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I use Engelmann, White, Black, and Red spruce sap wood all the time, not just in bracewood, but in tops. Not sure about the Lutz or Sitka, but I'd listen to Shane on that one. I gather my logs in winter and make sure to process them before spring, so the bugs won't get into them. If, as happened a few years back, I couldn't get them all done(saw broke down, owner wasn't in a hurry to fix it...), I peeled the bark off the remaining one, and it had minimal bug damage by the time I got to it in the fall. Red spruce just doesn't grow large enough to be able to waste the sapwood <bg>

Is the discoloring only on the surface? The blue you see is a fungus, usually caused by the wood not being stickered at all, or simply not long enough. Sounds as though it was sent to you green, and you didn't sticker them right away. at any rate, if it planes off, it can still be good. Slice off a few braces, and check them for stiffness, runout, etc.... Judge the bracewood by the brace....


How much wood is "12 orders"?

Kirt,

The stuff you used will be fine. What would be interesting to do, and I will do that, is to determine the difference in density between Lutz sap wood and Lutz Heart wood once they are both dry. I will try and do that later today. If there is no difference then the only real issue would be the colour difference which would be an important issue for the top but you could keep a homogenous colour for your narrow brace stock so wouldn't be an issue there. In the photos you posted I would be just mostly concerned with the 'wave' I see in some of those pieces. On thin braces you loose some of the strength as those 'waves' run off and back on to your brace. If you got some nice pieces out of the stock you had then you will be fine. You care enough to ask, that already says something about the intregity you are putting into your build. I just believe that braces are almost more important than the top wood and therefore will continue to turn sap wood from sitka species into heat. In my opinion there is not a lot you can do about the blue stain, just too much water locked into that wood, unless you processed it into smaller cross sections before you dried it.

Shane

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Canada

I just believe that braces are almost more important than the top wood

I believe the bracewood is MORE important that the top wood....

I've found the sapwood to be finer, denser and stiffer than the heartwood most of the time.

Thanks Mario,
The wood wasn't green it's been laying around for a while. It just need to dry out some. The blue stain goes all through the pieces that have it. In the first photo that wide piece is how it all came. You can still barely see the markings on the end that shows that chunk to be 3 bracewood "orders". Probably bigger than the pieces that Shane sells but by the time you split off the waste... not much left. The second photo is what I ended up with after I split and sawed the other "billets".

Cheers

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Horton, MI

Shame............ too bad Kirt.
I dont see the problem in naming the source of your spruce, it may help others avoid making a similariliy dissatisfying purchase in the future. If one is selling "tonewood" obviously they should know that that stuff is substandard, if not mabye they are just trying to make a buck?
I dont think this person is a member here either, so I doubt there would be a muckslinging event from naming the company.
I dont know - but I do know I would less than happy to recieve brace wood that I had to carefully salvage brace stock from.
Cheers
Charlie

Charlie,

Just PM Kirt. For me, I would rather not be part of discussing anothers reputation on a public forum. This isn't my house so I don't make the rules and it is important that if you have concerns that they are addressed but I request that we don't publically name names in this particular instance. It is not my style and I would really appreciate that.

Thanks, and in true Canadian fashion....SORRY!

Shane

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Canada

No, I'm not here to badmouth anybody. Just looking for some advice. I'm easy.

Looks like I can probably use some more of this in places where the staining won't show.

It wasn't that big of an investment so it's not worth the hassel to raise a stink.   

Probably won't get any more bracewood from there though.

Thanks all for the input.

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Horton, MI

Well said Shane.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the blue stain is a fungus, I think it is a mold. We have it in pine sometimes. They even use it (as blue pine) for cabinets. If that's what it is, it doesn't hurt the structure or strength of the wood, just the appearance.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......